Dual grouping and anti-dual grouping policies

acheron.org discussion board: ASCII Threads: Dual grouping and anti-dual grouping policies
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Necromancer (galaxy.cirrus.com - 141.131.7.32) on Tuesday, February 23, 1999 - 11:06 am:

What is the general consensus about the policies of groups (dis)allowing dual-grouping? I for one have always tried to enforce a no-dualing policy within Remorse, mainly because of the complications that arise, but not many other groups do that.

How do most of you feel about such policies?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Black Jack (dialin734.toronto.globalserve.net - 209.90.132.225) on Tuesday, February 23, 1999 - 11:24 am:

Well, a day after pack #8 (Feb 17th), I enforced a no-dualing policy within Mimic. It was agreed to by all of the current (grin) members, and the seniors. I think dualing shows a lack of respect for the groups & their leaders. The only people who dual, are the new kids who are in it for vanity. Real artists don't care about that.. they're more in it for respect, and the group as a whole. I think Remorse should enforce one. It would bring competition & respect up a notch (IMO).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Ministaaa (ip-216-75-15-131.wans.net - 216.75.15.131) on Tuesday, February 23, 1999 - 01:44 pm:

What do you think of dual grouping if the artists is drawing in a ansi group and an ascii group?

I admit, the artist won't submit as much as he would in only 1 group, but I do think he would do an efficient job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Pariah (207-172-40-199.s199.tnt11.ann.erols.com - 207.172.40.199) on Tuesday, February 23, 1999 - 05:39 pm:

Personally, I don't see much of a problem with an artist releasing with an all-ascii group and releasing with a primarily ansi-based group at the same. From my perspective doing so could only benefit the given artist and, to a certain extent, the groups involved; for the artist, his/her viewing audience would be nearly doubled, he/she would also be presented with a great opportunity to make several new acquaintances, and lastly, the groups would be benefactors as well (as long as the artist's production is not drastically affected) because the extra recognition received by the artist would motivate him/her to further perfect their art, which in turn would result in higher quality releases for both groups involved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Black Jack (dialin279.toronto.globalserve.net - 209.90.131.25) on Tuesday, February 23, 1999 - 08:55 pm:

Uh, guys? I'm talking all-ascii > all-ascii. This *is* the ascii discussion base here.. ;)

So, lets re-phrase all this, towards people who are in two all-ascii groups (or more!)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By minä (darth.nls.fi - 195.156.38.2) on Tuesday, February 23, 1999 - 10:54 pm:

oh, this was for ascii but =) dualgrouping happens because people aren't
satisfied with their current grewp. someppl doesnt want to wait till the next deadline also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By jp ( - 206.23.216.5) on Wednesday, February 24, 1999 - 05:05 am:

there's no real reason to draw for more than one group at once, and yeah.. i agree, no dualing polices can up the competition a lot, especailly in the ascii scene where there's so few groups in the first place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Cthulu of Mistigris (cr618396-a.crdva1.bc.wave.home.com - 24.113.55.86) on Wednesday, February 24, 1999 - 06:41 am:

Dual-grouping has been one of the primary sources of art for many smaller, feeder groups, making use of those cast-offs which are for whatever reason deemed unsuitable for release by larger groups. What is to fear from groups making use of the art that you choose not to use? It was already created, so you don't lose out on the artist's attentions - he made it with your 'top-level' group in mind.

In addition, considering that there is at heart no distinct difference between most groups, who puts a bean's worth on loyalty? So long as there are no real differences between groups artists are going to keep flipflopping between sides of the fence, casually switching from Coke to Pepsi, in the belief that something is actually different somewhere.

When they don't find differences, they make their own groups. Good for the scene but bad for already-established groups, whose interests I imagine this thead are in defense of.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Necromancer (galaxy.cirrus.com - 141.131.7.32) on Wednesday, February 24, 1999 - 09:06 am:

Dual-grouping has never been one of the primary sources of art for startup groups in the ascii scene. The source of art for those groups tends to be new(er) artists and people that have split off from their main group.

As to the question of what there is to fear, well, there's nothing to fear, but there's plenty to lose. When an artist is in more than one group, he must either produce twice the art he did before or he must cut his submissions in half, by splitting it between two groups. One of these two things inevitably occurs.

And regarding the difference between most groups, you are again mistaken - each group has it's own distinct personality, it's own distinct leadership, art style, etc, etc. The group's personality tends to take on the one of it's leader, whom ever that may be.

But I feel your comment about group-swapping is right on the money. If an artist feels no different in one group than in the other, why should he feel loyalty to either? That's why I have always personally strived to try to make Remorse more than a group - a family. Ask almost any member about that, and they feel that it's like a large, binary, extended family. Of course, there are exceptions within Remorse in regards to that belief.

However. The idea of dual-grouping when it becoms detrimental to one or both groups is what I'm curious about. What if, for example, the artist produces entirely for one group one month, and not for the other? And then he does it again? Why should he be in the one that he's not producing for? What does he gain from being in that group if he doesn't show his art? Nothing. He's only in it for the name.

I say, if you're unhappy in one group, leave it, find another, wash, apply, lather, rinse, and repeat if neccessary until you find a group that you are comfortable with. Otherwise you just cause problems not only for yourself, but for other people that have no difficulty finding motivation within themselves to have loyaly.

I, for one, have always held loyalty for Remorse in very high regard. It shows respect for the me, the group, and the other artists within the group.

- Necromancer
ACiD. Remorse. Your Mother.
"Public education is a system of imposed ignorance." - Noam Chomsky


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By RaD Man (h1920.s86b1.baynetworks.com - 134.177.25.32) on Wednesday, February 24, 1999 - 04:39 pm:

Lately I've been feeling that Cthulu has been playing devil's advocate just to provoke conversation...

There are alot of reasons, and excuses that people have to dual group. I've always been a firm believer that if you're going to join a group, you should join A group. I've always seen the diversion of a members attention to multiple organizations of the same interest as a lose-lose situation. It's an obvious conflict of interest.

-R


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By Cthulu of Mistigris (cr618396-a.crdva1.bc.wave.home.com - 24.113.55.86) on Thursday, February 25, 1999 - 08:01 am:

Cthulu doesn't neccessarily argue for the sake of conflict, but because his scene experience has been significantly different from that of you folks.

Arguing from the context of my area code (the 604) the only worthwhile things which weren't instantly snapped up (see: DOA by iCE) were due to individual artists working their way up the ranks in the outside art scene then lending their patronage to local start-ups.

Anything worth seeing which has come from this place has been a result either of Mistigris, which attained its first legitimization when we got Eerie as a member (though he was also at the time a member of Relic, Shiver, Acid, and any number of other groups), or RAiD, which was essentially a number of local elites (The Masked Pirate / Nation, Grateful Dead / Nation, Darkforce / Union) lending their name to a project to inspire locals to their level. Without these two groups (and notably their k-r4d patronage) there never would have been an Integrity.

Desperate groups have gotta take what they can get. That's how we ended up in the circumstance of Mistigris releasing ansi drawn by Grateful Dead for ACiD (QC'd) and months after we released it, ACiD's faltering ansi department lowering their standards, entering their vault and re-releasing it.

Healthy and dominant groups can afford to maintain high standards of loyalty, but it is ridiculous to expect small groups to conduct themselves in the same manner unless you distribute all of the good artists equally between groups 8)

Radman: in regard to your comment regarding diversion of a members attention - clearly that has resulted in signifigantly lacklustre newsletter production from myself, but I haven't been expelled for maintaining outside interests (writing in general and journalistic in particular) because frankly, I doubt there is anyone else to do the job 8). When the resource is bounteous, one can afford to impose restrictions (on group affiliation in this case) but when you're in a pinch, those ideals aren't as important (in most cases) as simply getting the pack out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of pageLink to this message  By hiro protagonist (a10.arts.ubc.ca - 137.82.195.40) on Thursday, February 25, 1999 - 09:46 pm:

I was probably one of the first ascii artists to dual group and am therefore responsible and due my own share of the blame for the detrimental effects dual grouping has on the scene, but I still feel it is an artist's _right_ to do whatever they wish to do with their artwork, and dualing was always about that for me... well, that, running my own group, and being eliter than elite.

I split myself up alot in the old days - a colly for remorse every month or two, a kts colly here and there (count 'em, all three of 'em, if you can ever find 'em), solo peices in the bi-monthly or whenever-we-felt-like-it quad-p releases, and all sorts of guest appearances (more than I can really remember) for groups who usually folded anyways a month or two after my guest aid. I'ld be lying if I said none of it had anything to do with prestige.. c'mon, let's be real.. I was in the best of the best of the best, the ultra-creme-de-la-creme of groups, and of course I was fuckin' proud of it.. but I was in those multiple groups because what was really important to me was the release - seeing my art reach out to other people, across platforms even...

I would never suppose to tell another artist what to do with their art. This would go against my core of beliefs when it comes to artistic creation, but I also don't think the scene is anything like it once was.. we're post-era/phase now instead of being in the moment.. we're in the great decline, and as it happens people need to stand and be counted for what they hold true to, and I.. I believe in family.


Hiro Protagonist.
Remorse 1981. Your Mother.


Add a Message


This is a public posting area. If you do not have an account, enter your full name into the "Username" box and leave the "Password" box empty. Your e-mail address is optional.
Username:  
Password:
E-mail: